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Post by Plant42 on Sept 24, 2014 21:14:44 GMT -5
Hi everyone! I haven't been in the forums since 2011, but I've been visiting AC's main page and occasionally commenting on the news postings. Part of the reason why I haven't been frequenting the forum was because I started losing some interest in the Tales series. I'm actually quite upset about this, too. I've had a few different favorite franchise obsession eras throughout my life--Mortal Kombat, then Pokémon, then Resident Evil, then Tales--but most recently, the Tales series has been letting me down, and a drastic drop in overall quality is what I attribute to this loss of interest. Am I the only one who is feeling this same way? Last year, I purchased a PS3 on Black Friday, and I said it would be my "TalesBox." I already had a 360, but after Vesperia, Namdai stopped supporting it in favor of PS3 (for understandable reasons). When Graces failed to get localized on Wii and proceeded to make it to PS3 in Graces f, I was disappointed that I would be missing out on it. Then I saw Xillia, and again was displeased that I'd have to miss out on that one. Again I went through the feeling of loss when Xillia 2 was announced. Upon seeing Symphonia Chronicles getting announced--the remake of my favorite game of all time--I declared that the final straw. When Zestiria was announced, I wasn't disappointed because I knew I'd be prepared with a PS3. ...But I was appalled once I actually played the games I had to catch up on. First up was Tales of Graces. That game had a ton of uninspired and bland environments that seemed more like decorated blueprints than convincing locales. There were too many areas with floating platforms and objects for the sake of convenience. The story did not actually get interesting until the post-game, and the music was mostly forgettable (I'm hard-pressed to remember any songs other than Sophie's theme). I was bored with Graces before it ended and I was hoping it would end soon so I could finally jump into Xillia, which I "knew" I'd love a lot more. Next up, Xillia. I was excited to explore the new world, which would surely deviate from the half-baked nature of Graces... though I was mistaken. Xillia had SO many re-used assets and elements that I felt the concern for quality in the series had been thrown out the window. Why is it that EVERY sea port looks EXACTLY the same, regardless of where in the world (or other worlds) you go? It's as if every port in the universe was designed by the same single-minded architect. Also, every town in the universe has an invisible salesman shouting "Mutton! Fresh mutton!" in the same exact voice clip. The first time I heard it, I thought it was a very nice touch. Then I heard it in another town [and every other one after that], and it felt cheap. At least it was funny when I thought he was yelling, "Nuts! Fresh nuts!" but eventually I learned I was hearing it wrong. The music was reused a lot too, and most of the music was uninteresting compared to past compositions--further making the game feel generic. And then there's the overworld, which is gigantic, devoid of anything interesting aside from some enemies (which all share a single battle cry based on categorization), and a plethora of small caves (all of which are identical with a crawl hole and exactly 1 treasure chest, if not an occasional empty cave, which is less rewarding, but actually more welcomed for the sake of variation). There's just way too much copy+paste throughout this game. There are also some AWFUL puzzle designs, such as jumping onto a magic glyph from a platform in order to unlock a door. Seriously, how did that get in the game? Anyway, The battle system in Xillia made every other character a lot mobile, which made them more approachable and enjoyable to play as. Overall I was disappointed by Xillia and it didn't live up to my expectations, but all hope was not lost; soon I would have Tales of Symphonia Chronicles, and there's no WAY they could screw up an HD remake of my favorite game ever with additional features and events that I never got to experience... Riiiiight? Before getting the game, I already knew they weren't going to be upgrading all of the textures properly, and that it would be little more than an output resolution bump to HD, as evidenced in this screenshot: That was a bit of a disappointment that they didn't properly upgrade this game to Vesperia quality (or at least make the textures uniform quality), but I assumed the rest of the update would be fine. At last I get my Symphonia HD, and it yet again, I was appalled by what they did. How could they have POSSIBLY messed up an HD Remake?! • The framerate is 30fps at best, whereas the GCN version had 60fps. The game looks a lot choppier and blurrier as a result. • The font used in the game is a lot plainer and uglier than the pretty and original typeface from the original game. • Also, they added text in HUGE black text boxes to the battle dialogue, which CANNOT be disabled. It almost looks like a remnant of the design phase which was accidentally left visible in the final game. • Some of the dialogue text appears in typos as seen in the image below. Furthermore, they specifically ruined the "word game" conversation ("Church of Martel => Lionel => Lip => Pill => etc."), so the phrases spoken back and forth are out of order and are incoherent in the context of the game/joke. • Careless oversights such as assigning a picture of some random crap on a stick to the "Miso Stew" recipe ...and this isn't even everything they did to ruin the original game. I just don't see what could possibly had been so difficult about porting the PS2 game onto the PS3 without screwing anything up, adding any extra garbage text, and maintaining the output at 60fps. After the baffling manner in which Namdai completely dropped the ball with Symphonia Chronicles, I wondered what could possibly had happened--did everyone with talent and love for the Tales series jump ship? In my opinion, Tales of Vesperia is the best Tales game ever created. Symphonia still holds a special place in my heart, but I clearly see how Vesperia, as a video game, is a lot better. The world was a good size, as were the towns. I'm okay with realistically-scaled environments so long as you're not sacrificing the quality and loving detail of your worlds. Nowadays, the Tales games have huge environments and they're all painted with a broad brushstrokes of lifelessness. By now, Tales of Xillia 2 has been out for a about 5 weeks, and I still haven't gotten it. If I went back in time to last year and told my past self, "By this time next year, you will not be excited for Tales of Xillia 2, or Tales in general for that matter," I would have told my future self, "Shut up; no way." Lo and behold, I've passed up Xillia 2's release date, and I don't feel compelled to play it. As it is, I've already seen footage of the game where the SAME EXACT SOUND FILE of "Mutton! Fresh mutton!" I can already see that their "copy+paste" ways have not changed one bit. Finally, looking at what Tales of Zestiria is shaping up to be, I'm seeing no reason to get excited. It just seems like more of the same half-baked efforts with an uninteresting story, and gigantic (realistically-scaled) worlds devoid of unique elements.
In summary, I fear that we may never see another Tales game in the way that we used to in Symphonia, Abyss, and--the pinnacle of Tales game design--Vesperia. I've noticed a great decline in general quality in the series beginning with Graces and worsened by Xillia onwards, in everything from story writing, to world design, and music. They also managed to botch a simple HD remake of Symphonia, which is as "un-botchable" as it gets. What used to be my favorite franchise for 10 years, has now become one that sadly disappoints me and gives me little to be excited about. And that's why I ask you guys: What is your opinion on the state of the Tales series? Do you think it's only getting better as we go forward, of is it simply a different direction of the same good game series, or are you like me who fears that we've had the last of the quality Tales games for the foreseeable future?
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Post by sukotsuto on Sept 25, 2014 14:55:07 GMT -5
In all honesty, I totally get what you're saying. I love Tales games, but in all honesty, I didn't have that same level of enthusiasm for the games you've brought up in comparison to the Tales games prior to those. In summary, here's what I thought with the same games: Tales of Graces F - Probably has the best battle system, but I somehow lost interest since some parts kind of dragged on for me. I think the characters didn't have that much of an impact to me as much as other tales did. Tales of Symphonia HD remake - I couldn't get that same frame of mind into the game as I did before, when I first played it. And speaking of frame, you nailed one thing that I couldn't put a finger on all this time: the frame rate. That 60fps frame rate was a beauty to behold. The amount of bells and whistles they put on the graphics and textures itself made them neglect how the game looks like in motion, and Tales games are mostly appreciated in motion. And now that you pointed some of those lazy, visual things out - wow. Lazy indeed... Tales of Xillia - I was forewarned by those who played Xillia and Xillia 2 Japanese version that Xillia 1 feels incomplete. And how right they are. I still liked Xillia, but it didn't have much to offer later on compared to most other Tales games. There's hope though: Tales of Xillia 2 might be able to get you back in. It's amazing! I thought it will just be the same (and even passed on playing it for a while when I got it), but Xillia 2 really does get way better as the game progresses. This is a complete Tales game, and I legitimately feel that I'm going to put in lots of hours into the game. The fact that they used mostly the same maps might bug people, but I didn't mind it as much in the end. It felt completely like a true Tales game in its own right, and people can bypass Xillia 1 (so the maps feel like new to them) and just get this one if they don't mind losing out on a few bonus costumes (speaking of costumes, most of the costume DLC in Xillia 1 can be used in Xillia 2). You won't even deal with most of the nonsense Xillia 1 has (no real convoluted puzzles, for better or worse). Even though I already have a bias towards Tales games, I don't see any other RPG currently out there that I would want to play more than ToX2 right now.
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Post by Plant42 on Sept 25, 2014 20:28:56 GMT -5
Tales of Graces F had a unique battle system, and it's different/unique enough that I can see how others may hold it as their favorite, but I actually didn't like it. Specifically, I didn't like how they based it on the idea of every attack being an Arte, so you use nothing but artes, and you're restricted to the number of moves you can do. I love combos, and a battle system like this makes it harder to stream longer combos. If I understand correctly, Graces wasn't the first one to have a battle system based off a number of hits like this--Tales of Rebirth apparently had this style of system, too. My favorite battle system style is the Symphonia/Abyss/Vesperia variants, with Vesperia being the best one, providing Burst Artes and a crazy Over Limit system. The only thing I didn't quite like about it is that you had to choose between which character would get to pull off their Mystic Arte, since they all share the same Over Limit pool. In this way, Abyss's system is better, as every character has his/her own Over Limit meter. Anyway, there were a few other things that REALLY irritated me about Graces F. One of the greatest slaps in the face was the way that treated the Title system. Instead of making titles something meaningful that each character earns for a specific and good reason, everyone is piled with a ridiculous number of titles. At this point, they become completely meaningless, and there goes one of the staple features of the Tales series. The thought "Is nothing sacred?" quickly came to mind. Another thing I didn't like about Graces is that it had very small list of weapons for a Tales game. Still, I hope to see a game in the vein of Vesperia again. Give me a smaller world with less-realistic proportions. Vesperia did not feel particularly unrealistic for its size. It felt quite perfect. By keeping the towns to that size, the worlds feel warmer, more memorable, and more finely and lovingly crafted. What I want is another Tales game with smaller environments (like before), better music compositions (like before), a very interesting story (like before), and a battle system like in Vesperia/Abyss. I really hope we see a PS4 remake of Vesperia PS3 and that we actually get it in the US... and that they DON'T screw it up like they did Symphonia Chronicles. It kills me to know that Vesperia on 360 is sooooo fantastic (I got all of the achievements), yet it's SoOoOoOooo incomplete--no Patty, no Whitehorse fight, no extra dungeons, no extra songs, no Sword Dancer, no extra Hi-Ougis,... and maybe worst of all..... NO INDIGNATION!!!! Ugh, I was so disappointed when I didn't get Indignation in Vesperia (which is another thing I hate about Graces and Xillia. Yet again, "Is nothing sacred?!"). So yeah, due to the fact that I've quite sadly lost all hope for Tales games ever being as good as they used to be, I'm holding my breath for a US release of Japan's PS3's Vesperia on PS4 in a "remastered/High-er-Def" re-release, though I'd gladly take it as a straight port for PS4.
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Post by warpedbythenhk on Feb 12, 2015 2:31:48 GMT -5
NO INDIGNATION!!!! Ugh, I was so disappointed when I didn't get Indignation in Vesperia (which is another thing I hate about Graces Graces has Indignation though. Also, Graces has great combos late game, which is why it has one of the most fun new game + modes in the series. One thing I really like about the combo system is that the cc mostly prevents truly infinite combos, while still allowing ridiculously strong combos late game. I mean have you seen the ridiculous combos this guy pulls off? www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYLagiQ_xNAAlso dodging in Graces is more fun than in Vesperia because free run is too simple and broken compared to the sidestep system of Graces.
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Post by Viktor Forslund on Feb 12, 2015 9:59:19 GMT -5
I'm kinda curious if someone who was introduced to the series with, say, Graces or Xillia enjoys older titles like Abyss or Symphonia more than the newer ones. If someone on here fits that description, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I'm noticing a pattern with the games following Vesperia in that combat only seems to become better and more approachable, while environment design and story suffer. Graces (apart from Lineage and Legacies which is actually good) has a very uninteresting story with pretty bland characters, I think (aside from Pascal and Sophie, the only two characters who seem to understand that this is a Tales game and that it should be funny every now and then.) Xillia, like you said, also has pretty atrocious environments. I can't say if Zestiria follows the same pattern since I haven't played it yet, but I hope its huge fields aren't just there for show.
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Post by Friendly Person :) on Feb 12, 2015 15:12:36 GMT -5
I started with Graces when it first came out in the US. At the time I found it an absolute blast. From there I moved on to Vesperia. The combat was really hard to get into initially, but the game's atmosphere and sense of adventure (the reasons which make it my favourite) pushed me onward. From there I moved to Abyss, which didn't feel too dated coming from Vesperia. Xillia came out next. It was fun, but I thought that the weak world interaction dragged it way down (without getting into boss mechanics). Next I attempted Symphonia and... the fanbase set me up for failure on that. I went into it expecting something amazing (because so many people called it the 'best' Tales) and was very disappointed. I never even finished it. It took me 3 attempts to finally see the credits. Xillia 2 is pretty much the same as the first, except now the combat is better.
Add some random dabbling into the 2d games, although I haven't finished any of them. (Phantasia, Destiny, Eternia, Rebirth, so on)
I say all this because now my opinions are very different. Vesperia is my favourite, Abyss is second. Everything else is a mix of pros and cons, except for Graces which I can't even finish anymore. The CC system, which initially felt like such an improvement from Vesperia, now makes the game boring. I've come to appreciate (really thanks to Dragon Quest) the concept of managing your TP and items throughout a dungeon; of fighting conservatively on regular encounters so that, on the boss, you can go crazy. Graces is the only game with CC I've played, but it makes the all the fights feel samey. Maybe that's more the fault of the A-arte tree. Maybe it's my own fault for not using different artes. Either way I can't play the game anymore. Symphonia, on the other hand, I've grown to appreciate. I still wouldn't put it anywhere near Vesperia or Abyss, but I have played through it multiple times now and found it enjoyable.
These are, of course, just my personal experiences/opinions, but I hope that helps.
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Derman
Oracle Knight
I still don't have a knife tag on my golden birth knife
Posts: 194
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Post by Derman on Feb 12, 2015 15:34:45 GMT -5
I have heard that many people who got into Tales through Xillia or Graces and then moved to Vesperia/Abyss found the combat very clunky. IIRC Namco said that they wanted to make Tales series to appeal for larger audience (which I personally think is usually a bad choice) so I guess they succeeded in that. Is the combat better in newer games? I personally prefer the old arte chain systems used in Vesperia and Abyss and the lack of TP can make normal attack pointless (outside of the low-risk hits). On the other hand, people (tales runners) have said the Xillia 2/Zestiria battle systems are some of the better ones. So I think it's very much a matter of preference.
The characters are not that bad IMO. Symphonia's cast didn't really appeal to me and I found Graces' cast to be pretty ok (watched a let's play of the game). As far as I've seen they've managed to stay away from the obvious archetypes in the newer games, which can be a good or a bad thing. I'd say the overall quality of writing in newer tales is as good, if not better than older ones.
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Post by Viktor Forslund on Feb 12, 2015 16:00:49 GMT -5
On the other hand, people (tales runners) have said the Xillia 2/Zestiria battle systems are some of the better ones. So I think it's very much a matter of preference. I agree, it depends on who's playing the game. Graces' battle system was very popular with a more casual audience (at least from what I've seen/heard,) whereas challenge folk might prefer Vesperia or Abyss where resource management is more of a thing. But again, it depends on the player. Everyone's got different tastes, after all. I partially agree that the overall quality has gone up, but I think Graces and Xillia lack detail here and there. Asbel and Richard become friends way too quickly if you ask me. I only recall them hanging out twice, and then not meeting for 7 years. I suppose it's necessary for them to be friends in order for the plot to make sense, but I think they could've handled it a little bit better. Xillia 1 had an issue where you chase the same goal for like 70% of the game, and you never really learn anything new about said goal until just before you get there, if I remember correctly. These are just my opinions, of course. What do you guys think?
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Post by Youngster Joey on Feb 12, 2015 23:25:17 GMT -5
While I'd agree I enjoy Tales games less than I used to, I'm not sure how much of this is actually due to the series declining in quality and how much of it is me just getting older. While I still think Symphonia, Vesperia, Abyss, Graces, etc. are decent games, I have less patience for the tired anime BS that permeates Tales games as I get older. The characters feel less endearing and more like silly anime gimmicks.
That being said, I think Xillia was terrible, and I'm pretty sure I would have thought the same 10 years ago. Boring characters and cliched-as-hell plot that didn't even make sense half the time. (Man, don't even get me started on how terribly written everything around Alvin is.)
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Post by Friendly Person :) on Feb 13, 2015 0:17:28 GMT -5
- SPOILERS REGARDING XILLIA'S PLOT TO FOLLOW - I think Xillia's character development got utterly ruined by the fact that it was rushed. Playing it again, I can see they had much more planned. Take Jude's character. I believe the cutscenes after Milla's death were originally meant to be played out given the variety of areas shown in the cutscene, and how frequently it jumps around. Considering Elympios was also supposed to be much longer (I believe it was originally the half way point), I can see Jude's arc playing out something like this:
Jude meets Milla -> Jude is fascinated by Milla's determination -> Jude follows Milla around because he has no ambition of his own -> Milla dies -> Jude blanks because he has no idea what to do -> Leia takes a bullet and Jude realizes he has to step up and make his own choices -> Some silliness in Elympios with Jude growing into the role of a leader -> Jude becomes an independent person with his own goals
I like that idea. It's the kind of character evolution that I enjoyed seeing in Luke. Unfortunately the game gets cut brutally short. The first half goes well but the second gets shafted. The result is that nobody liked Jude. Heck, Gaius and Muzet were originally intended to be playable, so I can't even guess who the final boss was going to be. It makes me really wish we had gotten an enhanced Xillia instead of Xillia 2. I find that the more I read, the more patience I develop for Tales' plot. It is my personal opinion (which grows stronger each day) that all video game stories are god awful anyway. If that's the case, I'll take the story that at least has an element of silly fun to it. It's an opinion that many people disagree with, but as an adult I can respect other people's right to have an opinion. Unless you think that pancakes are better than waffles, at which point NO, YOU ARE WRONG.
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Post by Lanate on Feb 13, 2015 19:29:44 GMT -5
I dunno, I've found my interest in the Tales series more or less equal to when I started, and I've been playing them for a decent while. I don't have too many expectations on storyline; the last two ones I liked whole-heartedly were Legendia and Abyss, but even then, there were weaknesses. Video games in general don't tend to enthrall me with their storylines either; I've always admired the Tales series for its character interactions, with an emphasis on skits, chats, and that kind of thing, and I feel like they haven't skimped on those in the latest titles. In terms of battle systems too, I have noticed they've become far more... beginner friendly? Yeah, I think that's appropriate. They're fun to pick up and play, though maybe a little frustrating to try and backtrack into the series? Symphonia on the PS3 felt so weird when bracketed by Xillia and Xillia 2, but maybe that's because I didn't fall completely in love with Symphonia on the GCN, and I didn't play unlocalized titles until they started releasing PSP ports.
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Post by Youngster Joey on Feb 13, 2015 22:17:14 GMT -5
- SPOILERS REGARDING XILLIA'S PLOT TO FOLLOW - I think Xillia's character development got utterly ruined by the fact that it was rushed. Playing it again, I can see they had much more planned. Take Jude's character. I believe the cutscenes after Milla's death were originally meant to be played out given the variety of areas shown in the cutscene, and how frequently it jumps around. Considering Elympios was also supposed to be much longer (I believe it was originally the half way point), I can see Jude's arc playing out something like this:
Jude meets Milla -> Jude is fascinated by Milla's determination -> Jude follows Milla around because he has no ambition of his own -> Milla dies -> Jude blanks because he has no idea what to do -> Leia takes a bullet and Jude realizes he has to step up and make his own choices -> Some silliness in Elympios with Jude growing into the role of a leader -> Jude becomes an independent person with his own goals
I like that idea. It's the kind of character evolution that I enjoyed seeing in Luke. Unfortunately the game gets cut brutally short. The first half goes well but the second gets shafted. The result is that nobody liked Jude. Heck, Gaius and Muzet were originally intended to be playable, so I can't even guess who the final boss was going to be. It makes me really wish we had gotten an enhanced Xillia instead of Xillia 2. While it would have been good to have fleshed Jude out more, it wouldn't have saved the game, imo. None of the characters developed in any way, which, I suppose, isn't terribly surprising when none of them had any personalities to develop anyway. They were all dry as dust, just figureheads that existed to move the nonexistent story along with some dialogue. One of the things I enjoy most about Tales is the banter between characters and the relationships that grow between them. I didn't see much of that in Xillia. FIGHT ME actually, I'm not sure... great pancakes are f**k**g fantastic and better than waffles on their best day, but... terribly made pancakes are the norm, whereas waffles tend to be pretty consistent in quality. I'm not sure.
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Post by aifread on Feb 14, 2015 3:00:20 GMT -5
I too have lost interest in the series since Vesperia. What keeps my interest in games are the details, and Vesperia PS3 is full of those while the recent games have been notoriously rushed. I haven't played much of what came after Vesperia, but I haven't been impressed from what I've seen, particularly in terms of art direction; Inomata's designs just plain don't work in 3D and there's little consistency in the character designs of the recent games.
Graces F seems to be held up by some fans as a sort of pinnacle of the battle system, but I think this is largely due to the fact that it's the only CC system game released outside Japan. I've played Destiny Remake and Graces F largely seems like a downgrade of that.
Storywise, I think Team Symphonia had the best writing (especially in how they invert anime/JRPG cliches) and since the lines between Team Destiny and Team Symphonia have been blurred the stories have suffered. Even though Destiny Remake is my favorite in terms of battle system, the writing (especially the rewriting of certain scenes from the PS1 original) made me cringe. But this is coming from someone who hasn't had the interest to play many of the other Team Destiny games or the games following Vesperia.
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Post by Friendly Person :) on Feb 14, 2015 4:51:54 GMT -5
I think the two teams merging is going to have a painful impact on the series. I'm not an expert on Team Destiny games, but I certainly prefer Team Symphonia's style. That said, I know there are a good deal of people who feel the inverse. With two teams, everyone could get what they wanted. With one, it's going to be rough. It doesn't help that Xillia and Zestiria have completely unrelated problems. Unfortunately the Tales development team is going to have a section of the community unhappy no matter what happens. After Zestiria I think the Tales development team and Bamco have a lot to think about. Regardless of the actual quality of the game, the level of negative feedback *should* have them reflecting. I'm optimistic that this will result in a drive to make the next game stellar. There's a lot of negative thinking on the topic, but I'll give them one more chance. After all, I do still love these games. FIGHT ME actually, I'm not sure... great pancakes are f**k**g fantastic and better than waffles on their best day, but... terribly made pancakes are the norm, whereas waffles tend to be pretty consistent in quality. I'm not sure. All I'm getting out of this is that waffles are so amazing that nobody can screw them up. - I hope I quoted that correctly... still trying to figure this out.
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Post by Moonlit Intermezzo on Feb 14, 2015 13:31:42 GMT -5
Storywise, I think Team Symphonia had the best writing (especially in how they invert anime/JRPG cliches) and since the lines between Team Destiny and Team Symphonia have been blurred the stories have suffered. Even though Destiny Remake is my favorite in terms of battle system, the writing (especially the rewriting of certain scenes from the PS1 original) made me cringe. But this is coming from someone who hasn't had the interest to play many of the other Team Destiny games or the games following Vesperia. This. Team Symphonia had really good writing, but the plot and gameplay tended to be stiff. Team Destiny has really, really bad writing, but the plot's solid and really good gameplay. Xillia was a mess, and Xillia 2 really couldn't fix the problems the first one had, 'cause it had problems of its own. For me, I like stories where the characters and the plot intertwine and change into something good throughout. Vesperia had really good world-building, but the lore and the background of the game's plot wasn't really there. Character development wasn't really good, as some characters (Rita, Judith comes to mind) really didn't change throughout the game, only towards the end of the second act into the third act. Graces, having a good battle system, has TERRIBLE characters and development (Asbel comes to mind). The plot was...it was something. The locales didn't really pull me, and the skits were hit-or-miss, the majority of them miss. I couldn't wait until I beat the game, so I didn't have to play it again. Xillia and Xillia 2 I already stated, so I'll leave it at that. Zestiria...ooh boy... It's good, but not as bad as people say it is. I liked the plot of it, the battle system is iffy as hell, the characters aren't really relateable, but it has damn good locales and art design. The antagonists aren't really good, as their motivations are just too cliche for a Tales game. I, personally am still interested in seeing the series continue on, but for a company who stated that they like to try new things, they seem to use old assets to do so.
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