Post by Friendly Person :) on Jul 6, 2015 20:24:33 GMT -5
Usually I avoid talking about the gameplay mechanics for Tales games because, as I've said many a time in the past, I'm not an expert. With Zestiria launching in the distant future I've been reflecting on my experiences with Graces, and while those reflections are full of the aforementioned ignorance, I thought I'd post them here in hopes of maybe starting a decent discussion. Who knows, maybe I'll learn a thing or two.
Background (feel free to skip)
Graces was the first Tales game I played. At the time, I enjoyed it so much I put over 80 hours into it, finishing the main game, L&L, and the Zhonecage. Afterward I immediately picked up Vesperia and prepared myself for 'the best game in the series'. Initially I did not like it at all. Early game combos consisted of only 3 normal attacks and an arte. There was no side stepping, and the combat was so slow. WHAT ON EARTH WERE THEY THINKING?
Vesperia's fun characters and overwhelming spirit of adventure (the reason it is my personal favourite today (spoiler)) kept me going. The combat opened up as the game progressed, and by the end of the game, I liked it every bit as much as Graces. Next I played Abyss, then Xillia (which I was super excited for pre-launch). After completing Xillia I decided it was time to go back and give Graces another playthrough.
And I soon became very, very bored.
The combat which initially was so fast now felt so... slow. It felt like I was constantly waiting for CC to refill, and those combos which were once flashy and fun felt extremely repetitive. Side-stepping was still nice, but the flow of combat fell into an extremely noticeable pattern of 'attack and wait, attack and wait, attack and wait'. I have played several more Tales games since then, and my opinion of Graces has only grown more stale. It baffles me when people constantly praise Graces' combat. It makes me feel like I'm missing something when they talk about how superior CC is to TP. Yet each time I try to find this hidden brilliance, the results are the same: a few hours of fun followed by several hours of boredom.
Why? Is it simply different strokes for different folks? Allow me to list some of my problems, and let's discuss it further.
- Waiting
CC kills the pace of a battle to me. I brought up the attack/wait cycle earlier, but I want to go a bit more in depth here. When I think about it, every Tales game has an attack/wait cycle. After all, once your combo is up, that period of attack is over. Yet, in the Symphonia style games, recovery is nearly instant (the same could be said of AC). You might need to dodge or block, but I never get the feeling like I'm just standing around, waiting...
'But you can dodge attacks to fill the bar faster'.
Yeah, but now I'm just waiting for an enemy to attack. That's still waiting. Which, to me, feels like half of this game's combat.
- Repetition
I'll admit that the first time I played through Graces, it was on normal. Recently I played it with my friend on whatever the highest available difficulty is by default, and I found this complaint exacerbated. For the average player, combos in Graces are shorter than they are than even mid-game Vesperia. You can easily complete a combo chain in a regular battle. Add to that the A-arte tree, which (for me, at least), results in many of the combos feel extremely samey, making them all meld into a dull, indistinguishable mess. Sadly, bosses offer no relief. It's essentially the same strategy, but the enemy has more HP. Short combo then wait, rinse and repeat - only now for much longer.
However, the repetition isn't limited to battle. One of the biggest complaints I hear about TP is that you constantly have to manage Orange Gels. Of course you do, silly! That's part of the challenge! Has anybody here played Dragon Quest? Managing your health, mana and items is important as you progress through a dungeon. You can't go crazy on every fight if you want to have the supplies remaining for the boss. The more you restrain yourself through the dungeon, the more crazy you can go on the boss! That's what makes the boss fun! Not only is it more challenging, but it's a chance for you to go all-out with everything you've preserved! Most enemies in Vesperia die long before you can perform a complete combo, but that's not a problem on bosses!
But of course, with CC there's nothing to manage. Health is the only resource, and since healing artes use the infinite-CC, even that doesn't require any management at all. It's just doing the same thing, over and over, without cost.
- Grinding
Regularly the retort to complaints directed at CC is that you can mitigate them with the dualizing system. True - I can spend a bunch of hours dualizing and make the combat more enjoyable - but is really much of a defense that you need grind for hours to make the battles fun? I mean sure, it takes a while for the combat of Symphonia/Abyss/Vesperia to open up, but it did so naturally, as you progressed through the game. The way dualization is handled in Graces encourages (forces?) grinding to get anything more than a minor benefit.
Conclusion
So holy crap, I just typed up a storm. I might have some other complaints floating around in the noggin, but for now I think I've covered most of my biggest ones. So tell me - am I an ignorant fool unaware of Graces' obvious glory? Or is it just not for me?
Background (feel free to skip)
Graces was the first Tales game I played. At the time, I enjoyed it so much I put over 80 hours into it, finishing the main game, L&L, and the Zhonecage. Afterward I immediately picked up Vesperia and prepared myself for 'the best game in the series'. Initially I did not like it at all. Early game combos consisted of only 3 normal attacks and an arte. There was no side stepping, and the combat was so slow. WHAT ON EARTH WERE THEY THINKING?
Vesperia's fun characters and overwhelming spirit of adventure (the reason it is my personal favourite today (spoiler)) kept me going. The combat opened up as the game progressed, and by the end of the game, I liked it every bit as much as Graces. Next I played Abyss, then Xillia (which I was super excited for pre-launch). After completing Xillia I decided it was time to go back and give Graces another playthrough.
And I soon became very, very bored.
The combat which initially was so fast now felt so... slow. It felt like I was constantly waiting for CC to refill, and those combos which were once flashy and fun felt extremely repetitive. Side-stepping was still nice, but the flow of combat fell into an extremely noticeable pattern of 'attack and wait, attack and wait, attack and wait'. I have played several more Tales games since then, and my opinion of Graces has only grown more stale. It baffles me when people constantly praise Graces' combat. It makes me feel like I'm missing something when they talk about how superior CC is to TP. Yet each time I try to find this hidden brilliance, the results are the same: a few hours of fun followed by several hours of boredom.
Why? Is it simply different strokes for different folks? Allow me to list some of my problems, and let's discuss it further.
- Waiting
CC kills the pace of a battle to me. I brought up the attack/wait cycle earlier, but I want to go a bit more in depth here. When I think about it, every Tales game has an attack/wait cycle. After all, once your combo is up, that period of attack is over. Yet, in the Symphonia style games, recovery is nearly instant (the same could be said of AC). You might need to dodge or block, but I never get the feeling like I'm just standing around, waiting...
'But you can dodge attacks to fill the bar faster'.
Yeah, but now I'm just waiting for an enemy to attack. That's still waiting. Which, to me, feels like half of this game's combat.
- Repetition
I'll admit that the first time I played through Graces, it was on normal. Recently I played it with my friend on whatever the highest available difficulty is by default, and I found this complaint exacerbated. For the average player, combos in Graces are shorter than they are than even mid-game Vesperia. You can easily complete a combo chain in a regular battle. Add to that the A-arte tree, which (for me, at least), results in many of the combos feel extremely samey, making them all meld into a dull, indistinguishable mess. Sadly, bosses offer no relief. It's essentially the same strategy, but the enemy has more HP. Short combo then wait, rinse and repeat - only now for much longer.
However, the repetition isn't limited to battle. One of the biggest complaints I hear about TP is that you constantly have to manage Orange Gels. Of course you do, silly! That's part of the challenge! Has anybody here played Dragon Quest? Managing your health, mana and items is important as you progress through a dungeon. You can't go crazy on every fight if you want to have the supplies remaining for the boss. The more you restrain yourself through the dungeon, the more crazy you can go on the boss! That's what makes the boss fun! Not only is it more challenging, but it's a chance for you to go all-out with everything you've preserved! Most enemies in Vesperia die long before you can perform a complete combo, but that's not a problem on bosses!
But of course, with CC there's nothing to manage. Health is the only resource, and since healing artes use the infinite-CC, even that doesn't require any management at all. It's just doing the same thing, over and over, without cost.
- Grinding
Regularly the retort to complaints directed at CC is that you can mitigate them with the dualizing system. True - I can spend a bunch of hours dualizing and make the combat more enjoyable - but is really much of a defense that you need grind for hours to make the battles fun? I mean sure, it takes a while for the combat of Symphonia/Abyss/Vesperia to open up, but it did so naturally, as you progressed through the game. The way dualization is handled in Graces encourages (forces?) grinding to get anything more than a minor benefit.
Conclusion
So holy crap, I just typed up a storm. I might have some other complaints floating around in the noggin, but for now I think I've covered most of my biggest ones. So tell me - am I an ignorant fool unaware of Graces' obvious glory? Or is it just not for me?