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Post by Youngster Joey on Apr 11, 2012 15:19:07 GMT -5
Hm, that's actually a rather interesting question.
As simple as it sounds, I don't believe in a higher entity because I have never been given a sound reason to. I suppose there could be an argument for a nondescript higher entity because some aspects of life seem so incredible, but certainly not a god like the Judeo-Christian one. Why would things like the Holocaust happen if there was really an almighty, loving god? I suppose one could argue that God, in making imperfect people, has given us the choice to be good or bad. Hence, the Holocaust is not a result of God's work, but of imperfect man making evil choices. But it still seems cruel that God wouldn't try to do anything. (Well, then again, God was a vindictive, jealous jerk in the Bible sometimes, so maybe he was fine with it. I don't know.)
But my real main problem has always been thus: if we use the higher entity to explain our existence on the Earth, then what explains the existence of that higher entity? I know some people would say that there doesn't need to be an explanation and that the higher entity simply is, but that doesn't solve anything for me.
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Post by sukotsuto on Apr 11, 2012 17:06:06 GMT -5
That's one of the reasons why I believe that a higher entity is impossible for us to truly grasp. It may be in a world outside of ours that the impossible are made possible, and paradoxes (like creating one's self) thrive and we do not perceive a flow of time, as everything, past, present and future, are one and the same and are happening at the same time. It seems to be a common thing to assume a higher entity would think just like us, I kinda compare it to ants thinking humans are just bigger ants.
And here we are thinking we already figured crap out, when there are still so many things within our grasp that's yet to be discovered or explained.
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Post by AokiShizuku on Apr 11, 2012 19:02:55 GMT -5
That's one of the reasons why I believe that a higher entity is impossible for us to truly grasp. It may be in a world outside of ours that the impossible are made possible, and paradoxes (like creating one's self) thrive and we do not perceive a flow of time, as everything, past, present and future, are one and the same and are happening at the same time. It seems to be a common thing to assume a higher entity would think just like us, I kinda compare it to ants thinking humans are just bigger ants. And here we are thinking we already figured crap out, when there are still so many things within our grasp that's yet to be discovered or explained. I'm pretty much on the same page with Suko here but that's not to say I have my doubts as well. I have an open mind when it comes to things like this but I just despise people who force their religions on you. Being brought up in a Catholic primary and high school I've always wondered, what if Christianity wasn't the most dominant religion in the world? Which religion would be the next best thing?
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Post by Umbra on Apr 11, 2012 19:27:29 GMT -5
But my real main problem has always been thus: if we use the higher entity to explain our existence on the Earth, then what explains the existence of that higher entity? I know some people would say that there doesn't need to be an explanation and that the higher entity simply is, but that doesn't solve anything for me. This is it for me, too. Being someone who wants to understand everything, this question has never left my mind. If God created us, who created God? I've thought about the origins of everything quite a lot. Even when you take something widely accepted in the scientific community like the Big Bang Theory to explain the creation of everything, there's still that missing piece of the puzzle: what supplied the Big Bang? How can you go from nothing to everything? It's analogicially the same as the creationist explaination. Religion hasn't convinced me of this point and neither has science, and that's why I'm agnostic.
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Post by Youngster Joey on Apr 11, 2012 22:16:13 GMT -5
Mm, yeah, I have my problems with the Big Bang Theory, too. I just don't see how you can create something out of nothing. It seems to be a common thing to assume a higher entity would think just like us, I kinda compare it to ants thinking humans are just bigger ants. Perhaps a god doesn't think like us, but the Judeo-Christian God is certainly touted to be quite concerned with wickedness and goodness, especially at the individual person level. That's one of the reasons why I believe that a higher entity is impossible for us to truly grasp. It may be in a world outside of ours that the impossible are made possible, and paradoxes (like creating one's self) thrive and we do not perceive a flow of time, as everything, past, present and future, are one and the same and are happening at the same time. It seems to be a common thing to assume a higher entity would think just like us, I kinda compare it to ants thinking humans are just bigger ants. And here we are thinking we already figured crap out, when there are still so many things within our grasp that's yet to be discovered or explained. I'm pretty much on the same page with Suko here but that's not to say I have my doubts as well. I have an open mind when it comes to things like this but I just despise people who force their religions on you. People always say this, but I've only very rarely encountered people who try to shove religion down my throat. Now, atheists who try to shove their opinions down people's throats? I've met plenty. Perhaps it's just a reflection of where I live, but still.
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Post by AokiShizuku on Apr 11, 2012 22:44:13 GMT -5
People always say this, but I've only very rarely encountered people who try to shove religion down my throat. Now, atheists who try to shove their opinions down people's throats? I've met plenty. Perhaps it's just a reflection of where I live, but still. I've had plenty of Muslim and Christian people trying to sell me their books and magazines of their religion and telling me how it will save me. I've rarely encountered an atheist that shoves their opinion down my throat but like you said it's probably just a reflection of where you live.
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Post by Youngster Joey on Apr 11, 2012 22:58:56 GMT -5
Hm, are you talking about the random proselytizers on the street, or people who will actually get into argument with you about it? We have plenty of the former here, but usually when you express you're not interested, they leave you alone and bother someone else. I don't really see people handing me stuff out on the streets to be "shoving their beliefs down my throat" because I don't have to read or even take what they give me. And if they think I'm burning in hell, oh, well, as if I care. Where I would take offense is if they got into an argument with me about it with personal insults and wouldn't drop it when asked.
To be honest, I actually really love the religious proselytizers on the street. They make my day with their big, huge signs about burning in hell and loving Jesus. It just strikes me as funny.
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Post by sukotsuto on Apr 12, 2012 2:44:23 GMT -5
Religion has always been made for man, not man for religion. As for people forcing their beliefs on me... ironically, I get that more from atheists than anyone else, and I see it as becoming the very people they don't like to be.
I feel it's very specific to certain places, but I never really met anyone who force their religion on me the way people describe it. I feel that most people often over-exaggerate them being bothered by random mormons and jehova's witness with their door-to-door missionary work as "being forced", when all I see are them giving merely an annoying sales pitch for their way of life, not worth fussing about. Parents and relatives may do that, and I've had that from my relatives, who force me to participate regularly in the religious community they're part of (which I didn't like going to, since I don't like hanging out with family), but in the end, they mostly just do it out of love and their persistent belief that you may turn into something socially unacceptable if you don't follow a religion.
Other than relatives, the closest to me being force fed religious beliefs was when these mormon missionaries started going to my house for a few consecutive days, wanting to turn me into a mormon, which was just slightly annoying, yet still interesting. They really wanted me, since even though they're the missionaries, I had a vast, personal understanding about God, religion and theology that seemed to have impressed them. When I was entertaining them as guest, sharing my viewpoint, I felt that I converted them to my spiritual perspective than I am to theirs, but I had to decline their offer into being a mormon in the end since I don't believe in what they believe in, feeling that it's too shallow.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2012 14:10:16 GMT -5
But my real main problem has always been thus: if we use the higher entity to explain our existence on the Earth, then what explains the existence of that higher entity? I know some people would say that there doesn't need to be an explanation and that the higher entity simply is, but that doesn't solve anything for me. ^Because it's beyond Human's comprehension. Also I agree with Scott about that Religion was made for Man, not Man for Religion.
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Post by Hiro the Half-Elf on Apr 12, 2012 14:12:41 GMT -5
Pushy atheists are jerks.
You know, like, the Big Bang Theory isn't just idle theorizing. You can see that stuff with astronomy (well, kinda-sorta. You can't see it in visible light, obvs, but the CBMR paints a pretty good picture of it) because electromagnetic radiation from it is still reaching the Earth right this second. The "big bang" part of it definitely happened. The "being a big soup of matter and energy in a relatively miniscule volume" thing definitely happened.
How-ever it got there in the first place, well, that's another matter altogether.
Here's some idle, casual philosophy:
I wonder, perhaps there is no "beginning" to time. Perhaps it's simply relative. The Big Bang, after all, wasn't the beginning of time, just the beginning of the universe as we know it (as far back as we can see through astronomy). The assumption is that, at some point, there had to be nothing and then there was something, but perhaps there was never a point in which matter/energy didn't exist. You could trace the timeline back infinitely and still it would be there. After all, the other three dimensions we know of work that way, why would time be different? Maybe matter didn't so much get inserted into a point in time (which is the normal assumption) so much as time exists only because there is matter for time to relate to. That's a bit of a strange concept, and quite hard to swallow, but I also find it hard to swallow that time could have a beginning. Maybe, instead of something coming from nothing, it is in fact a case of nothing coming from something.
I think, even if it took a deity to create the matter and energy that define the universe in the first place, such a being has clearly no interest in influencing humanity in the slightest, and thus the question of its existence is academic at best.
How did matter come to be? How did time or physical dimensions or the strong nuclear force come to be? After all, no one asks "gee, where the heck did neutrons and protons get the good idea to attract each other," they just accept that "that's how it is." What if matter was just something that was?
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Post by Youngster Joey on Apr 12, 2012 15:13:44 GMT -5
I'm sure the Big Bang Theory is quite well-supported, and I'm not saying it didn't happen. I just don't really understand its beginning. Granted, I've never taken a physics class, so perhaps my lack of understanding is due to the fact that I know nothing about physics in general.
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Post by Hiro the Half-Elf on Apr 12, 2012 16:02:21 GMT -5
Well, the thing is that no-one understands its beginning. Frankly, I don't think the theory contradicts Creationism, by principle. It just happens to contradict scripture.
I like to think that the universe comes about because it was generated on some pan-dimensional college student's computer procedurally, like a Dwarf Fortress planet. Ah, but then that brings up the even bigger question of how the pan-dimensional universe came to be.
And, besides that, would that make our college student overlord a god? Must we bow down before this nonpresent entity in reverence?
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Post by Youngster Joey on Apr 12, 2012 16:06:56 GMT -5
Of course you had to throw in Dwarf Fortress.
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Post by Hiro the Half-Elf on Apr 12, 2012 16:13:27 GMT -5
Well, I picked it because it's the most complex and in-depth procedural world-generator I know of. It starts by generating a barren planet, ages it several million years, then procedurally generates civilizations and then procedurally generates history.
Another roguelike game in the works plans to procedurally-generate every single species in the game. Fun stuff.
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Post by Umbra on Apr 12, 2012 21:43:36 GMT -5
Most of the pushy atheists I know are on the internet. Makes sense since the internet is the home of the atheist.
I tend to opt out of the hip atheist group that goes around bashing religion, mainly because I have friends who are religious.
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